#silverstripe IRC Log

IRC log for 18 April 2014

All timestamps are in UTC.

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4: [00:09:10] <LimRes> Hello all. Does anyone know how to get fields added via an override of getCMSFields to sit in the same DIV as the ones inherited from parent::getCMSFields?
5: [00:10:33] <LimRes> I have tried all sorts of variations of addFieldToTab, with the tab name "Root", "Root.Content", etc. But I can only add my own with a simple push, which leaves them outside the tabset so that they don't get the nice CSS margin
6: [00:10:47] <LimRes> this is in 3.1
7: [00:13:15] <UncleCheese_> Root.Main?
8: [00:19:00] <LimRes> 'Thanks UncleCheese!
9: [00:22:29] <LimRes> Still struggling with Tabs and Fields with removeByName, and trying to insertBefore, but this is really the only one that was critical. Thanks so much
10: [00:27:04] <UncleCheese_> You can use removeFieldFromTab() to remove a specific field from a tab
11: [00:27:26] <UncleCheese_> and addFieldToTab() takes a third argument for the field to insert before
12: [00:27:50] <UncleCheese_> ->addFieldToTab(“Root.Main”, TextField::create(), “Content”);
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36: [04:13:21] <ss23> "Do not anger the lift. If it shakes wildly when stopping, you have failed." -- Ordering pizza :D
37: [04:15:17] <Zauberfisch> :D
38: [04:23:17] <simon_w> Yay, people are bidding on my stuff!
39: [04:23:25] <simon_w> Not very much, but that's still some money
40: [04:37:49] <ss23> :D
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43: [05:01:35] <Zauberfisch> hmmm
44: [05:02:02] <Zauberfisch> not sure if it was such a good idea to have form return html text instead of plain string
45: [05:02:17] <Zauberfisch> now all forms inside includes seem to be broken D:
46: [05:02:26] <Zauberfisch> as in, html excaped
47: [05:03:11] <Zauberfisch> oh, its not form, its ViewableData
48: [05:03:13] <Zauberfisch> ...
49: [05:03:27] <Zauberfisch> / SSViewer
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55: [07:27:38] <greseky> hello guys, does anybody has experience with SS_Cache?
56: [07:28:12] <greseky> I would love to dave some hash in cache and then get it at some place
57: [07:28:21] <greseky> do not know how :0
58: [07:28:31] <greseky> dave == save :)
59: [07:29:09] <yuka> http://doc.silverstripe.org/framework/en/trunk/howto/cache-control
60: [07:29:11] <yuka> <3 :)
61: [07:29:27] <Zauberfisch> take a look at #2859
62: [07:30:05] <Zauberfisch> kinglozzer has used it in that pull request, which you could use as example code
63: [07:30:08] <Zauberfisch> https://github.com/silverstripe/silverstripe-framework/pull/2859/files
64: [07:30:30] <Zauberfisch> $cache = SS_Cache::factory('SomeName');
65: [07:31:09] <Zauberfisch> $cache->save($cacheData, $cacheKey);
66: [07:31:28] <Zauberfisch> $dataFromCache = $cache->load($cacheKey);
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68: [07:34:47] <greseky> Zauberfisch: thanks, must try :D
69: [07:35:00] <yuka> greseky that was close
70: [07:35:01] <yuka> :))
71: [07:35:11] <greseky> to what ? :D
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74: [07:59:00] <greseky> Zauberfisch: cache works
75: [07:59:31] <greseky> but it logs me out from cms. Why?
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78: [08:03:37] <Zauberfisch> odd
79: [08:03:46] <Zauberfisch> sure that has something to do with cache=
80: [08:03:47] <Zauberfisch> ?
81: [08:05:50] <greseky> yes, it is odd :D
82: [08:06:20] <greseky> it is annoying
83: [08:09:30] <Zauberfisch> what happend to TotalItems or what it was called on lists?
84: [08:09:49] <Zauberfisch> i can't find any count that gives me all items of a datalist after beeing limited
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92: [09:51:08] <marvanni> damn sspaste appeared to be offline for quite some time... I did not visted the site and did not got a notice from my host...
93: [09:51:12] <marvanni> its back again...
94: [09:51:46] <Zauberfisch> we noticed, but you wheren't around :/
95: [09:54:21] <greseky> hello guys, another chalange: this call <% loop pageByClass(NewsHolder).navigation %> returns nothing in Sitemap.css, but the same call works for NewsHolder: <% loop navigation %>
96: [09:54:22] <marvanni> too busy... damn that i did not knew that... The funproject is gattering quite some visits...
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98: [09:56:53] <greseky> navigation method for NewsHolder return custom ArrayList in NewsHolder.ss, but doesn't for in Sitemap.ss
99: [10:01:50] <greseky> Zauberfisch: have no idea why this does not work :/
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101: [10:08:45] <greseky> funny, i got this: the method 'navigation' does not exist on 'NewsHolder', but having "public function navigation() { ... " in NewsHolder.php class
102: [10:11:24] <greseky> anybody?
103: [10:15:16] * UncleCheese has joined #silverstripe
104: [10:20:12] <greseky> solved: i moved methods from controller into page extension class :)
105: [10:32:00] <Zauberfisch> marvanni: yeah, a couple of people here use it a lot
106: [10:32:08] <Zauberfisch> marvanni: however, I have to admit, I don't
107: [10:32:13] <Zauberfisch> I prever paste2.org
108: [10:32:20] <Zauberfisch> its ugly and has advertisement
109: [10:32:24] <Zauberfisch> but its damn simple and fast
110: [10:32:37] <Zauberfisch> none of that extra crap that gets in the way or slows me down
111: [10:37:29] <marvanni> i need to rebuild it sometime...
112: [10:37:42] <marvanni> but i think gist is used a lot too..
113: [10:38:29] <marvanni> I build it then to have a 'notepad' with reusable snippets, but now I know more of SS I know the snippets by heart most of the time...
114: [10:38:52] <Zauberfisch> I use gists too
115: [10:39:14] <Zauberfisch> but only for good snippets that are working and well thought through
116: [10:39:41] <Zauberfisch> gists are more a permanent thing, because they keep existing under my github username. I only want quality stuff there
117: [10:40:14] <Zauberfisch> for simple copy paste or a fast quick and dirty example for someone needing help is better placed on some random paste site if you ask me
118: [10:40:51] <marvanni> guess your right..
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121: [10:49:54] <marvanni> do you use display-logic?
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123: [10:51:05] <Zauberfisch> yes
124: [10:51:09] <Zauberfisch> handy module
125: [10:52:10] <marvanni> yes..
126: [10:52:30] <marvanni> Now i need to add isEqualTo programmaticly for multiple values
127: [10:52:44] <marvanni> more line isInArray() or something
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129: [10:56:34] <marvanni> I try to set multiple values with a foreach loop :
130: [10:56:55] <marvanni> foreach ($cats as $id) {$field->displayIf("ResumeEducationCategoryID")->isEqualTo($id);}
131: [10:57:05] <marvanni> but that will only use the last loop value
132: [10:57:18] <marvanni> I think i need this variation
133: [10:57:18] <marvanni> $label->displayIf("LinkType")->isEqualTo("internal")->orIf("LinkType")->isEqualTo("external");
134: [10:57:35] <marvanni> but no idea to build that instruction in a foreach..
135: [10:57:55] <Zauberfisch> yes
136: [10:58:04] <Zauberfisch> not sure if there is a shorthand for it
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139: [11:15:55] <marvanni> this works....
140: [11:15:56] <marvanni> http://sspaste.com/paste/show/5351066e2704a
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142: [11:29:28] <ocm> howdy!
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148: [12:28:22] <ocm> anyone.. how to get file ID from uploadfield in form?
149: [12:28:39] <ocm> $data['file']->ID doesnt seem to work
150: [12:35:44] <marvanni> $data['file'] is not an object....
151: [12:35:52] <marvanni> so that will never work
152: [12:36:07] <ocm> I got that :) but what will work? haha
153: [12:40:02] <marvanni> where do you need it, in the submissionMethod or in the MyFormmethod ?
154: [12:50:32] <ocm> submissionmethod
155: [12:51:49] <marvanni> do you use $form->saveInto($record); ? do you need the fieldname or the ID of the created file?
156: [13:06:13] <ocm> the ID of the created file from assets
157: [13:06:45] <ocm> it sends an email to an admin, and I want to put a link directly to the CMS in the email (like assets/Uploads/{$ID}
158: [13:12:25] <marvanni> code?
159: [13:19:16] <ocm> from?
160: [13:19:35] <ocm> its just an upload field I got in the form
161: [13:19:37] <ocm> and
162: [13:20:11] <ocm> $email->populateTemplate(array ( 'from' => $data['Email'] ) );
163: [13:20:14] <ocm> etc..
164: [13:27:09] <marvanni> wel if you get a file written to assets and database you need to have code to write the data somewhere?
165: [13:41:50] <ocm> uhm, no?
166: [13:42:15] <ocm> new UploadField('File, 'Your File');
167: [13:42:19] <ocm> is enough to do that
168: [13:46:25] <marvanni> ah ok... hm sry.. dunno
169: [13:46:55] <marvanni> maybe in onAfterUpload. do you cerate a DataObject as well for the file?
170: [13:51:25] <ocm> no, all filehandling is done by the default uploadfield
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174: [14:09:32] <Smashcat> Anyone know of a reason for SS not being able to find ~/mysite/_config.php ? The file is there, it's readable by anyone and is valid. SS just crashes out with "Silverstripe Framework requires a $databaseConfig defined."
175: [14:52:39] * Pyromanik has joined #silverstripe
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177: [15:05:22] <Smashcat> Is this channel dead today?
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181: [15:21:54] <ocm> yup
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184: [15:35:00] <Smashcat> That's weird, this template has a bunch of <%require javascript ..... > statements half way down the doc. When I add a normal JS <script src=""....> tag at the bottom, it moves them all down adjacent to it.
185: [15:38:10] <catcher> Smashcat, http://doc.silverstripe.org/framework/en/reference/requirements, see "Javscript placement"
186: [15:39:09] <Smashcat> Yeah, in this case it doesn't really matter that it's moved it about. Just seems weird that it does when I add a normal script tag.
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191: [16:10:08] <Pyromanik> Smashcat, that's because your <script> might be dependent on something in the requirements system.
192: [16:10:32] <Pyromanik> always never <script>, as a rule of thumb. It's just cleaner that way.
193: [16:10:56] <Pyromanik> Because then you don't get into issues with <!--<script> causing headaches.
194: [16:10:57] <Smashcat> Pyromanik: Not sure what you mean. The scripts were already all above the one I added. It just moved them down to just above it.
195: [16:11:28] <Pyromanik> yes but before there was no <script> tag.
196: [16:11:34] <Pyromanik> Now there is.
197: [16:12:09] <Pyromanik> It's not weird, it's a simple if() branch.
198: [16:12:21] <Smashcat> Yep. Still don' tknow why it makes a difference to where it puts scripts that were already above it though
199: [16:12:36] <Pyromanik> how do you not know why?
200: [16:12:39] <Pyromanik> I just said :<
201: [16:13:04] <Pyromanik> requirements should always be at the base of the page anyway
202: [16:13:09] <Pyromanik> by default.
203: [16:14:04] <Smashcat> Ok, I'll make it simpler: The scripts included via <%require...> were at the top. Say these were A,B and C. I added D as a <script> lower down. So they're already in the right order. But after adding the <script> it moved A,B and C down to just above D. So there's no difference to have the scripts work at all
204: [16:14:32] <Smashcat> s/to have/to how/
205: [16:14:37] <Pyromanik> because require javascript() has nothing to do with <script>
206: [16:14:58] <Smashcat> ...except it includes scripts...
207: [16:15:07] <Pyromanik> yes.
208: [16:15:56] <Pyromanik> I still don't see how you don't get this. <% require javascript() %> is in the template, yes. But it's not a <script> tag at all.
209: [16:16:34] <Smashcat> I do understand how it works. However instead of a straight replacement for the <% require tag, it's actually moving things around in the html.
210: [16:16:56] <Pyromanik> because it never was a straight replacement, and never ever will be.
211: [16:17:06] <Pyromanik> that's what you're not understanding, I see now.
212: [16:17:30] <Pyromanik> If it were a straight replacement there'd be no point in having a template directive for it.
213: [16:17:53] <Smashcat> Well, if it's automatically minifying there is
214: [16:18:07] <Pyromanik> it doesn't, by default.
215: [16:18:47] <Pyromanik> you can include a <% requirement anywhere in your template. They will ALWAYS be added to the base of the generated page, before the </body>
216: [16:19:02] <Pyromanik> unless you put them in the head with a config option.
217: [16:19:26] <Pyromanik> Requirements come out in the order they go in.
218: [16:19:29] <Smashcat> Right I see. (I rarely use SS - only usually get involved to fix something around the framework
219: [16:19:31] <Smashcat> )
220: [16:20:17] <Pyromanik> Now you've added a <script> tag instead of using requirements, so in case it depends on something (like jQuery) that's included with requirements, they are put out before the script tage
221: [16:20:20] <Pyromanik> tag*
222: [16:20:59] <Smashcat> Just me here today fixing something, and (unusually) I need to add some new JS to a template. So I just added via a new <script> tag to do it, as SS couldn't find the JS file using the <% require method for whatever reason.
223: [16:21:48] <Pyromanik> path wrong.
224: [16:22:04] <Pyromanik> you have to put the full path from the SS install's root.
225: [16:22:14] <Pyromanik> there's no themedJS like there is with CSS
226: [16:22:17] <Smashcat> nah, it's fine. Using the exact same path in the <script> tag worked fine.
227: [16:22:30] <Smashcat> It's working anyway ;)
228: [16:22:40] <Pyromanik> nah, it's not, unless there's another directive to block the script.
229: [16:23:00] <Smashcat> <shrug> dunno. It just wouldn't load it otherwise.
230: [16:23:02] <Pyromanik> require block("that/path"
231: [16:23:17] <Pyromanik> would stop it via requirements.
232: [16:23:38] <Pyromanik> but then you'd have to ask why someone has blocked it previously, and whether circumventing it is causing a failure elsewhere
233: [16:23:40] <Smashcat> Maybe then. I've never worked on this site before.
234: [16:24:11] <Smashcat> I highly doubt it's causing problems. The site isn't even finished yet.
235: [16:24:37] <Pyromanik> then I highly doubt the requirement code was ignoring the file for some reason.
236: [16:24:43] <Smashcat> cool
237: [16:24:52] <Pyromanik> there's got to be some reason.
238: [16:25:03] <Pyromanik> but if you're happy... meh.
239: [16:25:04] <Pyromanik> :>
240: [16:25:12] <Smashcat> Yeah, doesn't bother me :)
241: [16:26:09] <Smashcat> I only brought it up as I was interested about the positioning of the tags after my change. Now I see what's going on - it doesn't affect what I'm doing, but was curious
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246: [16:58:47] <r3v3rb> can any tell me how to get the full url returned in a controller
247: [17:00:54] <r3v3rb> without the action of the current page that is
248: [17:03:04] * BPower quit (Remote host closed the connection)
249: [17:06:13] <Pyromanik> uhh
250: [17:06:17] <Pyromanik> $Link?
251: [17:06:36] <Pyromanik> $this->Link() ?
252: [17:07:09] <Pyromanik> r3v3rb, I've decided.
253: [17:07:15] <Pyromanik> I'll get up at 4am and go to the midlands.
254: [17:07:30] <r3v3rb> 4am why why why
255: [17:07:35] <Pyromanik> train at 5
256: [17:07:42] <Pyromanik> don't get there until 10 :<
257: [17:07:53] <Pyromanik> I could maybe go tonight I guess
258: [17:08:00] <Pyromanik> get there at 1
259: [17:08:18] <Pyromanik> but money and stuff :<
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261: [17:09:06] <r3v3rb> Pyromanik: problem with $this->Link is that it isn’t the full url with domain
262: [17:09:18] <Pyromanik> $this->AbsoluteLink()
263: [17:09:24] <r3v3rb> ohhh
264: [17:10:11] <r3v3rb> Another beer owed to Pyromanik ;)
265: [17:10:43] * r3v3rb slowly freeing up my cardsave payment gateway from being attached to this specific site :D
266: [17:11:10] <Pyromanik> hmm?
267: [17:12:31] <Pyromanik> http://www.saddlebackleather.com/briefcasethin?sc=8&category=301406
268: [17:12:34] <Pyromanik> so many wants :<
269: [17:13:04] <Pyromanik> I want more suits, more shirts, probably an iron I guess
270: [17:13:14] <Pyromanik> and a bag that goes with them
271: [17:13:20] <Pyromanik> oh, new shoes would be good
272: [17:14:23] <r3v3rb> nice bag for an 80 yr old ;) hehe
273: [17:14:28] <Pyromanik> ha!
274: [17:14:42] <Pyromanik> style chap, you either got it or you don't.
275: [17:14:59] <r3v3rb> 3 internal pockets, 2 for penis, 1 for laptop charge <- NICE !
276: [17:15:01] <Pyromanik> and wearing a backpack with a well fitted suit is not deserving of the suit.
277: [17:15:31] <Pyromanik> but anyway, see the price tag :<
278: [17:15:41] <r3v3rb> Pyromanik: can hump his bag all the way to the midlands :D
279: [17:15:48] <Pyromanik> ha, sif.
280: [17:15:58] <r3v3rb> and not worry about soggy seconds ;)
281: [17:16:04] <Pyromanik> if i had the money to get one I wouldn't be so stressed about going to the midlands
282: [17:16:32] <Pyromanik> But it'll be something cool to do for the easter break
283: [17:17:57] <r3v3rb> so why the midlands I missed the reason
284: [17:18:41] * Error404NotFound quit (Quit: User guilty of hitting the Big Red X...)
285: [17:22:27] <Pyromanik> r3v3rb, because I didn't give one :P
286: [17:22:37] <Pyromanik> It's where Rugby comes from!
287: [17:22:53] <Pyromanik> but more importantly, it's where I can see a really fast kiwi.
288: [17:23:07] <Pyromanik> operating a german machine.
289: [17:23:24] <r3v3rb> wtf...
290: [17:23:32] * gelignite quit (Quit: http://bit.ly/nkczDT)
291: [17:23:38] <Pyromanik> I'm not going to rugby, I'm going to silverstone.
292: [17:23:47] <r3v3rb> superbikes?\
293: [17:23:52] <Pyromanik> Enduro
294: [17:23:56] <r3v3rb> nice
295: [17:23:58] <Pyromanik> 6hr, round 1
296: [17:24:06] <Pyromanik> rnd 2 is le mans I htink
297: [17:24:13] <Pyromanik> oe 3
298: [17:24:15] <Pyromanik> or*
299: [17:24:21] <r3v3rb> one of my clients is a trials bike maufacturer
300: [17:24:28] <Pyromanik> oh yeh
301: [17:24:29] <r3v3rb> for kids
302: [17:24:32] <Pyromanik> trials like offroad eh?
303: [17:24:37] <Pyromanik> trail bikes?
304: [17:24:43] <Pyromanik> time trial bikes?
305: [17:24:50] <Pyromanik> idk
306: [17:24:53] <Pyromanik> what is this
307: [17:24:56] <r3v3rb> yeh, obstacle courses etc
308: [17:24:59] * Pyromanik not huge with bikes
309: [17:25:02] <Pyromanik> motocross.
310: [17:25:03] <Pyromanik> right
311: [17:25:24] <Pyromanik> https://www.loomio.org/
312: [17:25:27] <r3v3rb> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REeeYtp-8qE
313: [17:25:28] <Pyromanik> hmm, looks interesting
314: [17:28:01] <r3v3rb> hmm, need a way to strip or add www to that absolute link to keep it the same depending on the ssl certificate that has been installed
315: [17:28:20] <r3v3rb> if the client doesn’t have a wildcard SSL certificate
316: [17:33:02] <Pyromanik> wholey shit what a mad guy r3v3rb
317: [17:33:15] <Pyromanik> fook'n men'al!
318: [17:33:43] <Pyromanik> r3v3rb, Director::force_www() iirc
319: [17:33:46] <r3v3rb> its mental isn’t it
320: [17:33:48] <Pyromanik> or something like that
321: [17:34:01] <Pyromanik> yeh, little electric thing, not really for kids though!
322: [17:35:02] <r3v3rb> started off, 10 years ago for his then 3/4 yr old in Denver, they have built a business around the son’s success and as he gets older so does each iteration of the bike range
323: [17:36:05] <r3v3rb> a little magazine I designed for them late last year - https://www.dropbox.com/s/ez01pq7joaxii97/Oset%202014%20Magazine%20-%20March%202014.pdf be warned its about 100mb because its print ready high res artwork ;)
324: [18:00:59] <Pyromanik> cool man
325: [18:02:03] <Pyromanik> r3v3rb, are things open today?
326: [18:11:00] * danfo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
327: [18:22:22] <Smashcat> Is there a way to get Silverstripe to automatically compile scss into css if it's changed before a page load?
328: [18:25:46] <Pyromanik> fuck scss
329: [18:25:48] <catcher> Smashcat, sounds a little expensive per-load, depending on traffic
330: [18:25:48] <Pyromanik> imo
331: [18:26:00] <Pyromanik> in short, no. scss is a ruby thing, ss is a php thing.
332: [18:26:15] <Pyromanik> also really slow, what catcher said.
333: [18:26:25] <catcher> All the way out to hdd on each load, gnarly
334: [18:26:31] <catcher> I mean, more than normal ;)
335: [18:27:14] <Smashcat> catcher: I mean in dev mode, it could check the changed timestamp of the scss file and invoke sass to recompile the css
336: [18:27:37] <Pyromanik> no.
337: [18:27:44] <Pyromanik> there's a less module, iirc.
338: [18:27:54] <Pyromanik> but that involves a bunch of permissions issues and stuff.
339: [18:28:26] <Pyromanik> it's pretty much like leaving ?flush on your url and forgetting.
340: [18:28:30] <Pyromanik> nasty business.
341: [18:28:33] <Smashcat> I can just add something to a controller to do it, but wondered if there were triggers for this type of thing built in
342: [18:28:44] <Pyromanik> there is for css, yes.
343: [18:29:01] <Pyromanik> not for bs language compiler languages.
344: [18:29:22] <catcher> Yeah, you can probably hook something where the css combining stuff runs
345: [18:29:30] <Smashcat> Pyromanik: Dude, I don't know what your problem is, but if you're not using scss in 2014, you're really doing it wrong...
346: [18:29:42] * Pyromanik hates the fuck out of 'metalanguages'
347: [18:29:57] <Pyromanik> if you're using scss in any time you've done it wrong IMO
348: [18:30:02] <Smashcat> I don't think you understand just how much it helps with layout...
349: [18:30:25] <Smashcat> Having variables alone is worth it.
350: [18:30:25] <Pyromanik> maybe with an extreeeeemely complex layout, it would help to obfuscate it more, yeah.
351: [18:30:39] <Pyromanik> PHP has had variables for about... since it was invented.
352: [18:30:51] <Smashcat> Do you actually work on sites commercially?
353: [18:30:59] <Pyromanik> Did.
354: [18:31:02] <Smashcat> I'm talking about variables in CSS, via SCSS
355: [18:31:12] <Pyromanik> and I'm talking about the same.
356: [18:31:30] <Pyromanik> People re-invented stuff that script languages have been able to do for years and suddenly it was a revolution.
357: [18:31:31] <Smashcat> So you think it's better to generate CSS in PHP? Interesting :)
358: [18:31:44] <Pyromanik> No i don't.
359: [18:32:01] <Pyromanik> I think one should write decent CSS in the first place.
360: [18:32:29] <Smashcat> Why do you use PHP? After all, it's just a wrapper around C, which is a wrapper around assembler, which is a wrapper around machine code?
361: [18:32:43] <Pyromanik> every time someone comes up with that arguement.
362: [18:32:57] <Pyromanik> and hey, if I had to compile PHP they'd probably be right.
363: [18:33:47] <Pyromanik> but the internet has taken something delcarative, entirely misunderstood it, converted it to a FUNCTIONAL language, which needs to be compiled rather than interpreted directly... it's just one massive failure.
364: [18:34:10] <Smashcat> You're missing the advantages of SCSS. Have you actually ever used it? I don't know anyone who works commercially now on sites, and doesn't use it.
365: [18:34:22] <Pyromanik> Well that's great for them.
366: [18:34:28] <Smashcat> Have you used it?
367: [18:34:31] <Pyromanik> yes.
368: [18:34:38] <Pyromanik> hated every minute of it.
369: [18:34:43] <Smashcat> Why?
370: [18:34:47] <Pyromanik> why not?
371: [18:34:53] <Smashcat> Nice argument :)
372: [18:34:57] <Pyromanik> ditto.
373: [18:35:04] <Smashcat> Why did you hate it?
374: [18:35:32] <Pyromanik> it's an obfuscation layer intended to turn css into something it was never designed nor intended to be.
375: [18:35:36] <Smashcat> It's nothing more than a preprocessor - I use them in C and Assembler every day - they're helpful
376: [18:35:48] <Pyromanik> sure, for languages you have to compile.
377: [18:36:12] <Pyromanik> why not just write C preprocessor directives and then compile it to CSS?
378: [18:36:21] <Smashcat> So you think it's better to change colour attributes manually in 1000 lines of CSS than use a single variable?
379: [18:36:27] <Pyromanik> no.
380: [18:36:51] <Pyromanik> so far variables are the only good thing you can mention about scss
381: [18:36:54] <Smashcat> So what do you use to do it then, that's better than the tool designed for the job?
382: [18:37:18] <Pyromanik> I write CSS that isn't shit.
383: [18:37:39] <Pyromanik> generally that works quite well.
384: [18:37:40] <Smashcat> It obviously also optimises the CSS itself, combining common declarations for elements etc.
385: [18:38:14] <Pyromanik> optimisation. Sure. Because we're running websites on a 286.
386: [18:38:29] <Smashcat> Like I say, I can write machine code (really) but it's generally not worth it today. I don't say "php sucks because it's a wrapper around C"
387: [18:38:54] <Pyromanik> so are about all the other things out there.
388: [18:38:56] <Smashcat> Pyromanik: Optimised for size, obviously.... Why did you think speed?
389: [18:39:12] <Pyromanik> because the internet is full derp about speed.
390: [18:39:44] <Pyromanik> just like it's full derp about 'best practice' which is mostly a load of made up bollocks
391: [18:39:48] <Smashcat> Well, making a more concise CSS file will help page load times too, and also the speed the browser will render the document.
392: [18:39:49] <Pyromanik> and meta languages
393: [18:40:08] <Pyromanik> barely.
394: [18:40:42] <Pyromanik> HEY GUYS, we've invented this brand new methodology of making websites and if you don't do it this way now you're so last year and fucking useless at being a developer etc...
395: [18:40:48] * Pyromanik reads methodology
396: [18:41:51] <Pyromanik> "oh, it basically amounts to loose coupling" fucking good work internet derps, that's only been around for about ever, only called something sensible rather than BSIUYSK!
397: [18:42:03] <Pyromanik> because dude, if you don't BSIUYSK you're doing it wron.
398: [18:42:06] <Pyromanik> +g
399: [18:42:41] <Smashcat> I'm far from a hipster, believe me, (was raised on assembler, and worked with demo groups on graphics engines in the 90's, and now do microcontroller firmware programming and FPGA design) . You seem to not understand the benefits of useing a preprocessor though
400: [18:42:42] * Pyromanik hates on metalanguages and the internet fanboy club that perpetuates nonsense
401: [18:43:02] <Smashcat> s/useing/using
402: [18:43:20] <Pyromanik> I understand fine. I just don't see why CSS needs one (to such a degree).
403: [18:43:25] <Smashcat> Which is interesting for someone using "PHP" :)
404: [18:43:29] <Pyromanik> variables are handy, sure.
405: [18:43:57] <Pyromanik> variables are simple substitution though.
406: [18:44:00] <Smashcat> Why aren't you railing about using a template engine in Silverstripe? After all, PHP can do that all by itself?
407: [18:44:23] <Pyromanik> scss isn't really a preprocessor more than it is a full lexer parser reconfigureatornator.
408: [18:44:49] <Smashcat> You can argue semantics all you like, for most people it's used as a preprocessor.
409: [18:44:52] <Pyromanik> because idiots such as the internet are made of will turn around and suddenly we've got wordpress.
410: [18:45:08] <Pyromanik> ss version.
411: [18:45:22] <Pyromanik> which basically amounts to 'enterprise edition'
412: [18:46:20] <Pyromanik> it's like fuck, just do a google and re-invent a whole new language ffs.
413: [18:46:28] <Pyromanik> stop pretending you're cool by calling it 'css'
414: [18:46:46] <Smashcat> It's hardly a whole new language. It's a superset of CSS
415: [18:46:54] <Pyromanik> no, it's not.
416: [18:47:05] <Smashcat> I don't think we're agree about anything dude
417: [18:47:18] <Smashcat> If I said the sky is blue you'd say it's purple
418: [18:47:25] <Pyromanik> nah, it's grey.
419: [18:47:29] <Smashcat> exactly
420: [18:47:34] <Pyromanik> .... and a bit orange.
421: [18:49:07] <Pyromanik> and yeah, you may as well write PHP and then dump the result of a pass through as a CSS file. It makes no difference because it's a compilation process, there's not really a need for 'separation of concerns'
422: [18:49:38] <Pyromanik> it's overcomplicating something that at heart is very simple.
423: [18:50:32] <Smashcat> SCSS is adding things that are sorely needed in standard CSS. I've wanted variables, while writing CSS (what little I do of it) for years.
424: [18:50:33] <Pyromanik> Sure it does some good things, but overall the hype about it fucks me off to no end.
425: [18:50:50] <Smashcat> And yes, I HAVE written my own preprocessors in the past to do what SCSS does.
426: [18:51:06] <Pyromanik> yeah variables are about the only thing though. And being a DECLARITIVE language, it's still feasible.
427: [18:51:15] <Smashcat> I don't give a shit about the hype, I just use what works
428: [18:51:50] <Pyromanik> I've done it, sure. But being told I'm shit at what I do because I don't do something exactly as millions of other sheep headed morons do, that's insulting.
429: [18:51:51] <Smashcat> Macros, imports (aggregration into a single document), combining rulesets, and optimisation.
430: [18:51:59] <Pyromanik> so SCSS is a personal insult to me, directly.
431: [18:52:08] <Pyromanik> Just from existing.
432: [18:52:10] <Pyromanik> :P
433: [18:52:32] <Smashcat> You could use Ant to do the same thing if you want to be edgy I guesss...
434: [18:52:50] <Pyromanik> or the language one is building their website in in the first place.
435: [18:52:56] <Pyromanik> which is another derp move.
436: [18:53:42] <Smashcat> You don't necessarily have the same environment to develop as you do to deploy. Installing ruby etc on a dev machine is nothing. You never need to run sass on the production server.
437: [18:53:49] <Pyromanik> someone uses ruby to build a framework called rails to serve html documents, and then goes "oh shit... if only there were some way I could also serve css... I know I'll invent an entirely new language!!"
438: [18:54:12] <Pyromanik> Smashcat, ha, but that's exactly what you're asking for!
439: [18:54:20] <Smashcat> Why do you think different languages exist? Do you think there should only be one language?
440: [18:54:34] <Pyromanik> There is only one language. All others are pretending.
441: [18:54:38] <Smashcat> C?
442: [18:54:42] <Pyromanik> :>
443: [18:54:50] <Pyromanik> nah, whitespace.
444: [18:54:52] <Pyromanik> :P
445: [18:55:01] <Smashcat> maybe brainfuck...
446: [18:55:12] <Pyromanik> fuck asm, just go full binary.
447: [18:55:28] <catcher> you guys are still going!
448: [18:55:37] <Pyromanik> I go all night, ask your mum!
449: [18:55:45] <Pyromanik> xD
450: [18:55:47] <Smashcat> You've nothing to complain about until you've tried to convert bit FPGA designs from Verilog to VHDL to use a library blob. believe me...
451: [18:55:57] <Smashcat> :)
452: [18:56:02] <Pyromanik> I can, and will!
453: [18:56:22] <Pyromanik> take that, fellow who thought I'd always disagree with him!
454: [18:56:35] <Smashcat> No I didn't :)
455: [18:56:43] * r3v3rb quit (Quit: r3v3rb)
456: [18:56:50] <Pyromanik> The sky is yellow btw ;)
457: [18:57:46] <Smashcat> Try adjusting the saturation on your window?
458: [18:58:00] <Pyromanik> I am, it's just taking a while.
459: [18:58:08] <Pyromanik> should be done in about... an hour I guess.
460: [18:58:12] <Pyromanik> then the sky will be blank.
461: [18:58:14] <Pyromanik> black*
462: [18:58:32] <Smashcat> Heh, anyway, I'm going to go and get sassy :)
463: [18:58:39] <Smashcat> cheers
464: [18:58:46] <Pyromanik> Good on you!
465: [18:58:55] <Pyromanik> man I fucking hate metalanguages.
466: [18:59:30] <Pyromanik> Like, I can see why we've got them, but that doesn't excuse them for being shit, and the shit people that use them because they're just generally too stupid to not.
467: [19:00:02] <Pyromanik> but yeh, large applications maybe there's a use there. Like the SS CMS for example.
468: [19:00:10] <Pyromanik> right. good. Glad. CU
469: [19:00:45] <catcher> hahaha
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491: [23:09:01] <UncleCheese> marvanni: are you here?
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