#silverstripe IRC Log

IRC log for 29 March 2014

All timestamps are in UTC.

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21: [07:37:31] <ss23> simon_w: what the fuck, I don't top cunt anymore?!
22: [07:37:32] <ss23> :(
23: [07:46:29] <simon_w> Sucks to be you!
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39: [11:25:54] <ss23> simon_w: r u going to sleep soon or r u awake?????????????
40: [11:29:21] <zippy___> ss23: Im still here… waiting for 3.1.4...
41: [11:29:47] <zippy___> :)
42: [11:30:52] <ss23> XD
43: [11:30:56] <ss23> I blame Mr Mooman
44: [11:31:19] <ss23> zippy___: Like I said, it's all merged. Mooman just hasn't ever done a release before so it's taking him a bit to get set up
45: [11:31:24] <ss23> He has projected Tuesday!
46: [11:43:37] <ss23> zippy___: yo
47: [11:43:48] <zippy___> ok :)
48: [11:43:50] <ss23> zippy___: So someone asked me how it would be best to do an audit of SilverStripe code (for security)
49: [11:44:07] <ss23> Could you read what I've written and give some thoughts on it? :)
50: [11:44:12] <ss23> (Anyone else here can too if they would like)
51: [11:44:13] <zippy___> sure
52: [11:44:48] <ss23> eh
53: [11:44:52] <ss23> gist has bad formatting, but uh
54: [11:44:57] <ss23> https://gist.githubusercontent.com/ss23/9852996/raw/0b3d7c54e282f7e4ba8a2042562723c14eae12af/gistfile1.txt / https://gist.github.com/ss23/9852996
55: [11:47:51] <zippy___> "CMS and Framework are the only two modules you probably won't need to audit or worry about." I would still do it anyway, in that, I would grab a copy of the same version and diff / check to make sure the cms and framework folders had not been altered
56: [11:48:15] <zippy___> "Basically it's each folder is a "module"" - good england
57: [11:48:22] <ss23> lol
58: [11:48:26] <ss23> This is why I'm glad you're reading it! :D
59: [11:48:33] <ss23> I will add notes about how framework/cms are often modified
60: [11:49:42] <zippy___> who's this aimed at?
61: [11:50:05] <ss23> a guy who is doing a pentest on SilverSTripe, knows PHP and has been doing pentesting for a long time, but never audited SilverStripe code before
62: [11:51:00] <zippy___> should let him know how to find current version. if they're running 3.1.3 then he's got some holes he can point (jez, SS are slow at releasing eh)
63: [11:51:07] <zippy___> point = poke
64: [11:51:20] <ss23> XD
65: [11:51:24] <ss23> eh
66: [11:51:39] <ss23> he should be okay at that already. Checking you're running latest version of software is fairly generic thing to check :P
67: [11:53:11] <zippy___> yea but you might want to mention the ss version file / mouse over the logo to see version
68: [11:55:15] <ss23> eh, he'll be fine I think
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71: [12:47:55] <ss23> Anyone else had any thoughts on it?
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75: [14:18:26] <SphereSilverNL> For those who remember me fighting with PHPUnit yesterday, here's the issue I stumbled upon.
76: [14:18:28] <SphereSilverNL> http://casa-laguna.net/all-the-news/show/phpunit-on-wamp-the-horror
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79: [15:59:51] <zfmf> does someone have problems with ?flush=all , after flush?=all i have to relogin sind i updated to 3.1.3
80: [16:00:01] <zfmf> since
81: [16:56:21] <SphereSilverNL> That might just be some session being reset as well, wouldn't call it a "problem" per se
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84: [17:49:48] * DanT1252 has joined #silverstripe
85: [17:53:52] <DanT1252> Hi. Almost-Drupal-refugee here. Looking at my alternative. IIUC, SS is one of the few CMS with dev->production staging that's functional. Is there a good reference you can point me at to better understand its capabilities? Complete machine&namespace separation for 'clean' staging of config, content & code is what I'm looking for.
86: [18:16:33] <SphereSilverNL> Have you had a look at the documentation and API-docs?
87: [18:26:16] <SphereSilverNL> The docs are a sure way to get you started.
88: [18:26:33] <SphereSilverNL> If you have questions about anything, ofcourse you're welcome here :D
89: [18:26:48] <SphereSilverNL> but your question is a bit too generic to give a conclusive answer to I think
90: [18:27:17] <SphereSilverNL> (Although, I think everyone here will agree, Drupal is a crappy thing, but let's not mention that, ok? :P )
91: [18:29:45] * BPower has joined #silverstripe
92: [18:30:01] <DanT1252> Heh. The question SHOULD be quite simple: @Drupal - "Does Drupal have a robust staging system, that allows clean, separate staging of content, config & code". Answer: No. er, "It will in D8".
93: [18:30:50] <DanT1252> SphereSilverNL: Just looking for the same in SS. Input HERE is helpful, as up-front I got the same "look in the docs" and "there's a module for that" @ Frupal. Which turned out to be complete horsepuckeyt.
94: [18:31:29] <SphereSilverNL> Well, the modules (addons) for Silverstripe can be found here: http://addons.silverstripe.org
95: [18:31:50] <SphereSilverNL> And note the big difference, pretty much every addon is well written and usually well documented.
96: [18:31:59] <DanT1252> Hm modules? (warning flag!) No staging as a core concept?
97: [18:32:22] * DanT1252 has developed an allergy to "There's a module for that!"
98: [18:32:24] <SphereSilverNL> You're mixing up the default features with addons/modules ;)
99: [18:32:47] <SphereSilverNL> The given CMS has staging/live methods etc. included, don't worry.
100: [18:33:13] <SphereSilverNL> I'm talking about other modules, like a module, that creates the Google Sitemaps XML pages for you ;)
101: [18:33:43] <SphereSilverNL> And please, look at the addons. You'll see, as I said, pretty much every one of them is well documented and well written.
102: [18:33:54] <SphereSilverNL> Silverstripe developers mean business ;)
103: [18:34:27] <DanT1252> Well, it's better to hear that than not, to be sure. But, once nitten, twice shy -- doncha know.
104: [18:34:41] <SphereSilverNL> Unlike Wordpress/Joomla/Drupal modules, which are often written by scriptkiddies, hardly maintained and often written badly
105: [18:35:07] <SphereSilverNL> I understand, but you have to see "Silverstripe Modules" different.
106: [18:36:05] <SphereSilverNL> Those are modules, that actually add useful functionality, whereas the Framework and CMS give you the basic, well extendable, core functionality with test/stage/live features, a friendly admin-interface, etc.
107: [18:36:07] <DanT1252> The reason I'm in "refugee status" is because even core functionality -- which bloody well should be written well, maintained, and functional with modern web standards isn't -- in at least one 'big' issue relevant to me (and, it seems to others).
108: [18:36:18] <DanT1252> @ Drupal, that is.
109: [18:37:03] * SphereSilverNL_ has joined #silverstripe
110: [18:37:37] <SphereSilverNL_> Some cat, specifically mine, thought the UTP-cable was a toy :/
111: [18:38:13] <DanT1252> Mine thinks the same of my keyboard. Likes to 'type' ...
112: [18:38:59] <SphereSilverNL_> DanT1252: Just for fun, read the inline comments on the Silverstripe classes and read the docs a bit. Pretty much everything is covered (although, admitted, developers and documentation don't go well together...)
113: [18:39:02] * BPower quit (Remote host closed the connection)
114: [18:40:23] <SphereSilverNL_> And, sorry if I'm bragging, but, here in the IRC channel, most of us will always try to help you solve your problem yourself (giving you a nudge in the right direction)
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117: [18:40:39] <SphereSilverNL> instead of saying "just use module X to fix issue Y"
118: [18:42:15] <SphereSilverNL> I'm fairly certain, the times someone here said "use module X" instead of actually helping to solve the problem is 0 times.
119: [18:42:59] <DanT1252> SphereSilverNL: Yeah, poking around now. TBH, the 'vibe' I'm looking to understand is -- when something 'big' is broken, does it get fixed? or does it sit around for years, with the usual "Fix it yourself! We don't get paid for this"?
120: [18:43:18] <DanT1252> I'm not talking about "demands", I'm talking about a general sense of project responsibility.
121: [18:43:22] <SphereSilverNL> Only when the question is too obvious, or there is a good, well functioning, non-breaking module available, we point to the module asking if the user has had a look at said module.
122: [18:43:45] <SphereSilverNL> Have a look at the github repository ;)
123: [18:43:48] <DanT1252> Here's what I'm looking to avoid, as a specific example: https://drupal.org/node/1694574
124: [18:44:38] <SphereSilverNL> If something like that would happen on silverstripe, ofcourse you'd have to submit an issue-report on github
125: [18:44:56] <DanT1252> Happy to contribute to a project I'm in, but there's obviously stuff I can't do at the start, and have no interest in shouting into a vaccum. Again.
126: [18:45:35] <DanT1252> Understood. Point @Drupal is, that *IS* a submitted issue. And it's STILL been ignored for 1.5+ years, and nobody @core team is interested in fixing it.
127: [18:45:48] <SphereSilverNL> I can only say, give it a shot. Here in IRC, the answer is probably the fastest. On Github issues, usually, a week is a slow response
128: [18:46:21] <SphereSilverNL> Unless it's some trivial question that doesn't belong to the core, ofcourse. But usually, even than, there will be an answer
129: [18:50:11] <SphereSilverNL> To summarize: Everybody in here rather solves a puzzle, than tell you to look at module X
130: [18:50:13] <SphereSilverNL> :)
131: [18:50:49] <SphereSilverNL> But, don't ask trivial stuff, because you'll get the reaction "Have you even read the docs?"
132: [18:50:50] <SphereSilverNL> :)
133: [18:52:04] <DanT1252> SphereSilverNL: k. ohloh tells me that SS has some traction. that's good. nobody in here, yet, has called me an idiot. that's good too. as for 'reading the docs', understood, but to be fair -- there ARE stages of evaluation, namealy *early* where finding/digging through/understanding the docs for every CMS you're looking at simply makes little sens, and is often ineffective.
134: [18:52:12] <DanT1252> that said, I'm looking at the docs ...
135: [18:52:45] <SphereSilverNL> As for starting with Silverstripe, here's a good starting point: http://doc.silverstripe.org/framework/en/tutorials/
136: [18:53:05] <SphereSilverNL> Those are the Silverstripe tutorials, it'll help you setup a basic website :)
137: [18:54:25] <SphereSilverNL> It's the best startingpoint to understand pagetypes, DO's etc.
138: [18:56:57] <SphereSilverNL> Also, ssbits.com, it's a bit behind (They're working on a new version), but it's a good resource overall
139: [18:57:46] <DanT1252> thx. looking.
140: [18:57:50] <SphereSilverNL> A lot of well documented howto's and snippets and such :)
141: [19:04:47] <DanT1252> I'm spoiled by Symfony's docs. Of course, miss having a full CMS *with* a large community, tho. (Although Redkite is ... interesting).
142: [19:05:55] <DanT1252> SS's docs *do* seem to use complete sentences, so THAT's a plus! ;-)
143: [19:07:36] <SphereSilverNL> Symfony isn't bad :)
144: [19:07:57] <SphereSilverNL> It's learning curve is long and very steep (Is that the correct term?)
145: [19:08:25] <SphereSilverNL> Silverstripe's learning curve is less steep, but also shorter in terms of "getting things done"
146: [19:08:59] <SphereSilverNL> In terms of complexity, Silverstripe's learning curve is way longer, but less steep
147: [19:10:20] <SphereSilverNL> You can easily build a new website with it. But to fully understand it's inner workings, you're at least 3 years along the way
148: [19:10:51] <DanT1252> SphereSilverNL: Noted. I'm looking -- closely -- for what'll let me GetStuffDone(tm) without biting me in the a$$ 2 months from now. Been there, done that, would rather not repeat the process.
149: [19:11:01] <SphereSilverNL> You can't build a website with Symfony that easy, but once you get it, in about a year or so, you can build 60% of all websites :)
150: [19:11:44] <SphereSilverNL> Well, considering the biting in the rear end. Silverstripe or Symfony, would be my "final competitors"
151: [19:12:43] <SphereSilverNL> One comes with a complete CMS if I want to, the other is more strict and set. That's a decision that would be decided by the given time to get it done :)
152: [19:13:25] <DanT1252> Atm, I'd likely agree. And probly add Plone, and possibly PyroCMS v3.
153: [19:15:32] <SphereSilverNL> I get an itchy feeling by any system that claims "Developers love it". or something like that :)
154: [19:15:58] <DanT1252> Wait .... didn't you just say that somewhere up there *** ? ;-)
155: [19:16:14] <SphereSilverNL> probably :D
156: [19:19:37] <DanT1252> SS uses TAL as a template language? As in migrated from Zope, TAL?
157: [19:21:39] <SphereSilverNL> As far as I know, the templating engine is completely on its on
158: [19:21:53] <SphereSilverNL> A bit fugly, but it works.
159: [19:24:36] <DanT1252> hm. apparently so. now, is it *required* ... ? digging.
160: [19:25:03] <SphereSilverNL> With some hacking, you can add another templating engine
161: [19:25:19] <DanT1252> Don't need to add, just remove.
162: [19:25:44] <DanT1252> just wanna use PHP/HTML5, and nothing else.
163: [19:26:30] <Zauberfisch> php in templates is not going to work
164: [19:26:40] <Zauberfisch> but the template engine is really not that bad
165: [19:26:48] <DanT1252> Zauberfisch: noted.
166: [19:26:57] <SphereSilverNL> Well, you have to include *some* templating method to get the backend data to be shown in the frontend
167: [19:27:06] * DanT1252 recalls how many times over the years he's had to unwind a template engine ...
168: [19:27:07] <Zauberfisch> and I guess its good because it forced people to keep the template clean
169: [19:29:30] <DanT1252> TAL's better than many, to be fair.
170: [19:37:40] <Zauberfisch> idk
171: [19:38:07] <Zauberfisch> i haven't seen tal before, but looking at some examples i am not sure I like it
172: [19:44:55] <DanT1252> Zauberfisch: I thought TAL was the 'default' in SS. No?
173: [19:45:04] * DanT1252 sighs and goes back to reading
174: [19:45:12] <Zauberfisch> uhm, not that I know of
175: [19:45:42] <Zauberfisch> silverstripe has its own template engine. (one can argue that this is stupid, but well, it works)
176: [19:46:05] <Zauberfisch> you do things like
177: [19:46:18] <Zauberfisch> <% if $SomeList %>
178: [19:46:28] <Zauberfisch> <ul>
179: [19:47:03] <Zauberfisch> <% loop $SomeList %><li>$Title: $Content</li><% end_loop %>
180: [19:47:06] <Zauberfisch> </ul>
181: [19:47:11] <Zauberfisch> <% end_if %>
182: [19:49:25] <DanT1252> apparently I've been in an alternate reality, cuz now I can't find mention of TAL + Silverstripe ...
183: [20:05:35] <Zauberfisch> then I guess: welcome back to this one :P
184: [20:09:58] <DanT1252> Well, SS seems worth a closer looksee, thx! Wondering about how much 'pain' migrating a Drupal site's gonna be ...
185: [20:11:47] <Zauberfisch> really depends on the site
186: [20:12:00] <Zauberfisch> but there is no auto converter as far as I know
187: [20:12:17] <DanT1252> Heh, didn't expect one. WOuldn't trust if it there was ;-)
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189: [20:20:07] <UncleCheese> what’s the deal with time field?
190: [20:25:51] <Zauberfisch> its sort of a step child
191: [20:26:02] <Zauberfisch> pretty sure I just misspelled that
192: [20:26:17] <Zauberfisch> anyway, its not really that useful
193: [20:28:03] <Zauberfisch> luckily I didn't need a time field in the recent past
194: [20:28:22] <Zauberfisch> perhaps dropdowns would work best?
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196: [20:31:47] * zippy___ is now known as Guest83874
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198: [20:32:03] <UncleCheese> dude, the thing is such sshit
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200: [20:32:12] <UncleCheese> i keep entering 8:00PM and I get 8:00AM
201: [20:32:24] <UncleCheese> even 18:00:00 gets me 6:00:00 AM after saving
202: [20:34:50] <DanT1252> UncleCheese: date.timezone correctly set in your php.ini or settings.php?
203: [20:34:57] <UncleCheese> OH!
204: [20:35:04] <UncleCheese> maybe?
205: [20:35:05] <UncleCheese> hmm
206: [20:35:54] <DanT1252> UncleCheese: http://php.net/date.timezone
207: [20:36:01] <UncleCheese> what is that
208: [20:36:05] <UncleCheese> date_default_timezone_set?
209: [20:37:28] <UncleCheese> nah
210: [20:38:03] <DanT1252> UncleCheese: php -i | grep timezone
211: [20:38:24] * UncleCheese quit (Quit: UncleCheese)
212: [20:43:28] * CamelCase quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
213: [20:46:48] <DanT1252> is SS known to play well with Varnish? there's NO hits on varnish @ the doc site ...
214: [20:51:23] <Zauberfisch> I think I heard someone say he is runnign varnish
215: [20:53:16] <Zauberfisch> http://logs.simon.geek.nz/index.php?date=2012-09-22#log_788925
216: [20:55:20] <DanT1252> Hm "<markjames> Although that requires some changes to how SS sends out headers and starts session, so not a quick fix."
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